Who cares about exciting?

Apart from his injuries, he was one of the most solid, well performing players of the late Fergie era. He ran for days, won the ball 3000 times per game without getting carded much, he moved the ball well, he got into the box. He is literally the exemplification of what we want Herrera to be. Having another Fletcher is a dream, not something you settle for.

Or you don't want a Makelele type either? Just because they're not flashy, doesn't mean they're not good enough.

I'd take a Fletcher, Makelele and GNev any day of the week and twice on Sundays, over the likes of Neymark, van Persie and [insert another random name that has more flash, less work].

A good analysis of his game: (https://statsbomb.com/2019/02/fiorentinas-fed...tion/)

Good text about Chiesa, much more than the usual cheap sports journalism without any basis on real knowledge.

Looking at this player, I'd take the risk. I have a feeling that he might become really good if used properly. He is a bit wild when it comes to shooting, but that's because he is already considered a star at Fiorentina and they also gave him the armband. Maybe his coach has given him the freedom and instructions to try and shoot every time he can? Anyway, if he can adapt to a huge club like United and understand how to use his potential while playing for the collective, then he would make a step up and become a real asset.

And then, when it comes to shooting, also Rashford is shooting from everywhere and he's a very young player as well. The only difference is that Rashy is doing it at United where he has so many super players around to pass the ball to, which makes it slightly worse :)

Back to Chiesa, his athleticism combined with other abilities mentioned previously is something that puts him in my shortlist.

I am not saying that we should definitely go for him, but we surely must watch him closely until the end of the season and maybe make a move.

Lamba escreveu:

Who cares about exciting?

Apart from his injuries, he was one of the most solid, well performing players of the late Fergie era. He ran for days, won the ball 3000 times per game without getting carded much, he moved the ball well, he got into the box. He is literally the exemplification of what we want Herrera to be. Having another Fletcher is a dream, not something you settle for.

Or you don't want a Makelele type either? Just because they're not flashy, doesn't mean they're not good enough.

I'd take a Fletcher, Makelele and GNev any day of the week and twice on Sundays, over the likes of Neymark, van Persie and [insert another random name that has more flash, less work].

I have clearly said that I don't need every player to be ...as you said "flashy". Ngolo Kante is not flashy, Carrick was not flashy, Keane neither, Toni Kroos is not flashy, Busquets neither, but those are top players in my book. Compared to them, Fletcher is pure average. (just to be clear and prevent a long post from Chuksi.... :) those are just some examples and I know very well that not all of them are/were playing in the same position as Fletcher).

But, imo, there is a difference between Makelele and Fletcher, so I wouldn't go that far and compare those two, as the former was a better player overall, maybe one of the best in his position at the time. Fletcher was a good player, a loyal servant, but we can't get too romantic and too emotional when it comes to our ex players. Let's be a bit more realistic.

Makelele was a good defensive midfielder with good short passes - and that's it. The reason he was the best at what he did, is that he played a role with little spotlight or praise and he kept working no matter what people said.

Overall, Fletcher was the better, more complete player. They're not completely interchangeable, but if I had to choose one of the two for any team, I'd take Fletcher.

A type like Makelele needs some good ballplayers in front of him. Fletcher could make a difference for any team.

Lamba escreveu:

I like McTominay a whole lot, but I would like better competition for the spot, than just Matic.

I'm also bleeding red enough to believe that anyone who makes it to our U21 squad as an academy player, has enough potential to make it to the first team, if attitude and determination is good enough.

McTominay, Bortwick-Jackson, Fosu-Mensa and Tuanzebe are all players I really hope to see as rotationals - at least - in the coming years. Those four can, as far as I'm aware, cover both backs, cover central defence, cover the central midfield.

Having 4 homegrowns like that would be huge - but to make it happen, we need to offload the "baggage". Of course we need to carry a decent sized squad, but say outside of top 18, we should have room for academy players who will get maybe 20 first team appearances per season in all competitions in total. How will Tuanzebe ever get games in the defense, when he's behind Lindelof, Jones, Smalling and Bailly? I'd say adios to Bailly and make our top academy prospect the #4 guy.

I agree with the general idea, but I think this depends on the character of those young players more than anything. Are they determined enough to fight for a place and improve without getting regular games? I mean for them to be useful for United they would have to get to a level that is higher than the starters at most PL clubs. Brothwick-Jackson for example doesn't seem to be good enough - there's a reason he is out on loan in League One and last season played only once on loan at Leeds.

The other three probably have enough talent, but being a backup is still a tough task. Not everyone is a team player like O'Shea, Fletcher, Park or even Herrera last season. Not everyone will work hard enough to be ready to play at their very best level when given a chance, knowing that even if they do their very best, they might not play again in the next month or two and might not get on the bench most games.

This is where I can see the benefit of Ole, at least compared to Jose. Jose was not concerned at all about keeping the fringe players motivated and feeling like they're important. His substitutions, his general comments about them in the press were.. not good. Ole does this a lot better.

I think that squad management in this sense is important. Fergie often decided not to buy a new midfielder for example, when he felt that someone might make a step up and at the same time we had at least some solutions if that player didn't make the next step. Some criticized him for not buying more midfielders, but I think that was deliberate and actually worked really well.

I think there should be some squad players who are homegrown, but they still have to be able to contribute. I feel like with our previous three managers we've lost some talents because the manager didn't include those young players or bought someone when perhaps none were needed. With Jose it nearly got to a point where Martial seemed like he might leave because Jose was freezing him out. It's not the same as a youth player, but still. And I still can't believe Van Gaal sold Welbeck. Looking back it was perhaps not that bad as he has had injury after injury, but still. Rafael as well.

In general I agree with you totally, but in terms of who exactly should those squad players be - I just don't know if all those mentioned would work out.

Talking about utter crap....

Who cares really if Moyes overachieved with Everton?
There are many coaches who overachieved with one club and then underachieved with another. That doesn't prove or mean anything.

I think it's important, because there really isn't a good way to compare managers. I mean how do you compare the manager of Everton vs the manager of Real Madrid? Is winning three CLs with Real Madrid better than what Moyes did at Everton in 11 years?

As for overachieving with one club and underachieving with another - I can't think of anyone other than Moyes who has overachieved for a sustained period of time with one club and then failed badly at another. In general past performance predicts future performance and the only way of judging performance is based on comparison to expectation at that club.

I still genuinely think that Moyes got a raw deal because Gill left and the club was a mess at the time. Had we had a good summer that season then who knows how things might have worked out. Of the three we had since Fergie, I think he was the best choice in terms of who might have led the club successfully for a long time. But in the end he made too many mistakes as well as the club was not supporting him anywhere near enough.

Solskjaer has that "something" in my opinion, not only because he's been at the club for many years, but above all because he truly understand the club and he's compatible as a person. Many players have played for United, but not all of them have really understood it completely. Ole has got United under his skin and in his soul, you can feel that.
If he can show that tactically he is good and astute enough, if he can get the help from the owners, then he has a very bright future at United.

Well.. he's done well, but if you look at the matches against big sides - Tottenham totally battered us when we got a win, PSG dominated, we got a draw against Liverpool at home without really threatening too much. The cup wins against Arsenal and Chelsea were good games though. That's two good games, one where we nullified Liverpool but didn't offer much ourselves and two where we were totally outplayed(got lucky in one).

I think it's a bit of positive thinking to say that he has done really well in big games. He hasn't done badly and compared to Jose it's night and day, but to say that everything is rosy is a bit too much I think.

But all I'm saying is that we should judge at the end of the season.

Good job bringing all those stats, but to tell you the truth, now I'm even less convinced, especially on the domestic front.
In Europe, some draw or even victory against top teams doesn't really mean much, as Tottenham didn't even arrive to the semi-finals of CL or EL. (I can't be arsed to google this, but I don't remember them having any success worth mentioning).

Even City have reached the CL semis only once in the last 10 years. It's not like such a feat should be expected of a club that is not one of the richest. PSG haven't reached it despite their enormous investment and great set of players. Barcelona haven't reached semi-finals for 3 years already.

As for Inter - beating a club from the big leagues is a big win even if the club is not doing great. They're also in the top four in Serie A so they're a big club.

As for the domestic stats I'm surprised you're skeptical. Arsenal is perhaps the team that is most comparable in terms of stature. For the sake of argument I'll bring their last 4 seasons stats against the top six as well:
2-2-6 this season
9-12-15 in the previous three under Wenger
so 11-14-21. Far worse than Tottenham.

Chelsea:
18-14-19 over the last 4 seasons. Slightly better than Spurs. But they have much bigger resources.

Now, I still hope something can click there and that Fred might get more chances and start using them. I feel that a player like him needs a run of games in the first 11, in order to start "producing", but it is difficult to give him that playing time when we are chasing 4th spot and the other midfielders are putting in some good performances. Let's see against Southampton, as he might start again.

I think that the time with Jose was 'lost time' with him. Under Fergie we also saw some players who didn't adapt right away and he seems a bit lost(at least that felt like the case against Palace).

The other question is whether he is that good. I mean he came from Ukraine, where the level isn't as good. Some players that have come from there have been very good, others have not been as good. The last number of seasons some bigger transfers from Shakhtar/Dynamo:
Fred
Bernard to Everton
Douglas Costa to Bayern
Luiz Adriano to AC Milan
Fernandinho
Mkhitaryan
Willian
Yarmolenko

Fernandinho and Willian have truly shined in PL. Mkhitaryan was.. kind of meh. Douglas Costa looks good, but has never produced consistently in Italy or Germany. Bernard has been meh, Luiz Adriano was quite swiftly moved on from Milan, Yarmolenko hasn't really done well at West Ham and Dortmund were also happy to sell him on quickly and with a loss.

So I'd say that we badly overpaid and took a needless risk with a player who might or might not be very good. Being a top player in Ukraine just doesn't prove TOO much.

I also hope he finds his feet and starts contributing but I'm not too confident about his chances.

McTominay is a completely different story and since there is lots of time for him, I feel it would be wise to let him go on loan, but only to a Premier League club and only if he can have a good amount of time on the pitch. Otherwise, what's the point of sending him on loan if he will sit on the bench elsewhere?

I think a loan is not a good idea. He is good enough to get some minutes at United most probably. Maybe it will be painful for a while, but he seems like someone who will do a job and fulfill a tactical dirty role to the letter, which is really really useful. He has enough physical ability to be able to do that and because of that he will get enough games at United to improve if the manager rotates and trusts his younger players.

I also re-gained some faith in him in the last game, but I just can''t agree with you about us needing a new Fletcher :)
I know they can't all be Cantona or Giggs or Ronaldo, but why would anyone need a new Fletcher? If you said a new Keane or a new Stam or a new Carrick, that would be OK, but if need a new Fletcher than we could also get us a new O'Shea :)

And we do need a new O'Shea as well. Someone who is a squad player, someone who is dependable and who understands what United is about. Those players are very important and I'm sometimes quite puzzled how you want to dismiss them. Every squad needs their Martials and Rashfords and Pogbas, but they also need the dependable players. I think we've lacked some of those since Fergie left. At times the club felt so soulless when we had nearly none such players playing. The quality wasn't there obviously, but at times neither was the fighting spirit that those decent-but-not-great players offer in abundance for the chance to be a part of Man United. If we stack the team with top players, then someone like Di Maria probably won't fight if things aren't going well and we're playing away at Burnley in January. There is rarely a set of really great players who all offer what the squad players offer in terms of hunger.

And then, when it comes to shooting, also Rashford is shooting from everywhere and he's a very young player as well. The only difference is that Rashy is doing it at United where he has so many super players around to pass the ball to, which makes it slightly worse :)

Actually quite wrong.

Rashfords average shot quality is good - about 0,13(the same as Martial and slightly better than Lingard). I don't have a shot map for him and I'm too lazy to start looking through the statsbomb twitter accounts to see if it's available somewhere, but it's not really comparable to Chiesa.

I'm not saying we shouldn't look at Chiesa. I think he is probably one of the better talents out there and the type of age/skill combination United should look for. It's just that a lot of those players whose shot locations at that age are so erratic don't have great decision making and don't evolve into top players. The guys at statsbomb have done quite a few pieces on attacking players and it's just a theme that I've picked up on, where players with poor shot selection don't end up really good players.

But in general I was more commenting in general than saying that I wouldn't like such a transfer. I'm always happy if we buy young talented players. I don't know if he'd be my first choice, but I'd definitely be happy about him. As I've heard that Ole has been planning for the summer transfers already for a while, I hope the club has scouts out looking at players like him.

But, imo, there is a difference between Makelele and Fletcher, so I wouldn't go that far and compare those two, as the former was a better player overall, maybe one of the best in his position at the time. Fletcher was a good player, a loyal servant, but we can't get too romantic and too emotional when it comes to our ex players. Let's be a bit more realistic.

I agree with Lamba here.

Makelele was a player for one position and one position only. There's a reason why it was called 'the Makelele position'. Fletchers value was not only that he could play as a scrapper for us, but that he could play multiple positions and play them well. Fletcher in his prime before his stomach problems was defensively somewhat like Herrera - he covered a lot of ground but if needed, had the discipline and physique to mark someone out of the game(like Gerrard). But at the same time he was good on the ball - his passing was comparable to our other top midfielders. He wasn't as good technically and couldn't dribble out of a tight spot as well as Scholes or Carrick, but he had the legs to make forward runs and get in the box or stretch the play on the right if he played as a right sided midfielder. He scored quite a few important headers for us against top teams.

The versatility, the ability to be at the top of his game every two weeks when needed and the overall quality were what made him great.

I think that in general it's not a good idea to compare him to Makelele, because they're so different, but if I had to choose one of them to play for us from 2005-2010, then it would be Fletcher. It's a bit like whether Sarri needs Kante or if he'd want someone like... Ramires (at his prime) in that position instead. Kante is clearly a better DM, but Ramires would suit that squad much better. And Sarri can't really play with Kante as DM and I'm not sure Fergie would've been able to make the squad work as well with a 4-3-3 with Makelele at the base either, because that would've hurt Scholes and Carrick and they would've had to play more offensive roles that wouldn't suit them. In that case one could argue that Fletcher would even be a better choice ahead of Carrick if Makelele is the DM as Fletcher offers more in the attacking third.

I guess my point is that those 'higher quality players' you mentioned were better than Fletcher in some role, but Fletcher had the versatility and flexibility. By that I mean that he could play alongside any of those players and the midfield would work. At the same time I can't see how a midfield of Busquets and Keane or Keane and Kante would work. I don't know if I can explain myself better than this.

-edit- And I'm slightly sorry for so many long posts :).

southampton 2-Man U 2 WTF is happening think OLE should get the hairdryer out and smack a few players round the head haha :)

yeah southampton 2 ManU 3 haha great ..close game but we still have a fight yeah come on OLE

Good, interesting match.

We were lucky that Sanchez got injured :)

After that, Ole made a very good tactical change, putting Dalot on the right and more importantly Pereira behind Lukaku and Rashford.

As the matter of fact, Pereira suffered in central / right midfield and he started to play better once he was moved further forward. His goal was a beauty and I am glad for him.

Lukaku crucial with his fantastic scoring instinct, self-confidence and determination.

Young almost ruined our victory with that extremely stupid and unnecessary foul, which gave Southampton that free kick, from which Ward Prowse scored the equalizer.

Rashford didn't do very much today with the ball. Made some good runs without the ball, but not much more (apart from putting his leg in front to get the penalty). Maybe he is not really 100% fit, but maybe just too much self-confidence at times. Often searching for some flashy moves or sometimes improvising when he needed to be more concrete. Not the best decision making. Should be more consistent, as he isn't a rookie anymore. Imo, Lukaku is seriously threatening to take back his place as a striker.

Pogba getting on my nerves with that run-up before taking a penalty. If I was his coach, I'd tell him to either change the way of shooting penalties or he won't take them anymore. You got to be more serious there and bury it. At least shoot seriously.

Edit: just seen the table and surprised to see we are only 3 points behind Spurs.

With how our injury situation is, I'm a bit surprised to see a not fully fit Rashford play a full game, instead of starting with Chong (or Pereira on the wing).

I don't mean to underestimate Southampton by any means, but it became apparent that we didn't really have any (good) changes available when it became 2-2. That Fred (I think) got the assist for the 3-2 goal is more a coincidence imo.

Pereira, I think, could make a good left winger in the system we're applying, until both Rashford and Martial are fully fit. I also think Sanchez should be used more on the right. He seems to work a whole lot and his passes and crosses seem more dangerous than his end product. Has he even had a shot in the past 2-3 games he played in?

In before we're hiring John Woodward, Ed's brother, as new manager.

The 0-2 loss at Old Trafford to PSG and your transfers during your time at the club is seen as unacceptable.

- A real FM firing. ;)

Hope we will see Martial on and Rashord off.

Lindelof and Young poor as well.

The others were OK in the 1st half, but we needed a bit of luck as well.

I think John Moss missed about 30 penalties so far this match.

I think your right about that

I mean; granted, I'm biased as a United-fan.

But whenever there has been a tackle, the Arsenal player is on the ground like you shot him. Whenever a United-player is tackled, the ref waves "play on" before the tackle is done.

The penalty. I'm pretty sure there has to be some kind of contact. Do they bump hips that makes him lose balance? 'cause there's no contact when he goes down.

TL;DR: Jon Moss and a fluke goal was the real difference that killed a great game.

jon moss needs to go to spec savers ..dickhead